How to use customer experience data with Keith Povey, Director of Marketing at Feefo
Do you know how to use customer experience data to improve your B2B tech marketing?
Keith explained how customer experience data gives you real insight into brand perception, product merits and faults and how you can improve your B2B marketing to meet your customers challenges and needs.
This episode covers:
- What does the current customer experience landscape look like in B2B marketing?
- Which platforms are best for capturing CX data?
- How can marketers use CX data to inform their strategies?
- How CX data goes beyond marketing for wider business growth
- How to communicate CX data to an executive level
- How CX data an align cross functional teams
- At what stage should an organisation gather CX data?
Listen to the full episode here:
And check out more of the FINITE B2B marketing podcast here!
Hi everyone and welcome back to another FINITE Podcast episode. On this episode we’re joined by Keith Povey, who is Director of Marketing at Feefo - a review platform that uses smart technology to unlock insight from customer feedback and improve customer experiences.
And that’s why today we’re diving into customer experience, how customer experience marketing has evolved, how to capture CX data, when to capture it, how to use it to inform wider business decisions. I’m excited for this conversation, I hope you enjoy.
The FINITE community and podcast are kindly supported by 93x, the digital marketing agency working exclusively with ambitious fast growth B2B technology companies. Visit 93x.agency to find out how they partner with marketing teams in B2B technology companies to drive growth.
Hey Keith, thanks for joining me today.
Hi Alex. Nice to meet you.
I'm looking forward to talking. We're going to be talking all about customer experience and how it feeds the marketing engine, the wider organisation, an interesting episode, particularly with everything you're working on at the moment. I'm going to start by letting you introduce yourself. Tell us a bit about your background, experience, current role and team, and then we'll dive into the conversation from there.
About Keith and his current B2B tech marketing role
I always say this, but I have a checkered past in the best possible way. So I've covered a lot of bases. I've been on the agency side for five or six years and the corporate side for the rest of it. I've worked in huge organizations like IBM and Verizon, and I've worked in startups out of my loft with a couple of employees in Tokyo and some over here and everything in between, converted horse barns and currently work for a really rapid growth business like Feefo.
The whole thing has always been around IT. I've always been in tech some way shape or form of B2B marketing, but always tech. I found out very early on I needed to release my inner geek. So that's just the way it's always been.
Cool. And tell us a bit about the current role and team of Feefo.
Feefo is an amazing organisation. I joined them 10 months ago, a really exciting plan that they've got currently. My team has got 12 people in it, so that's anything from content creation all the way through digital, the full gamut, PR, campaign activity, the full load. And they're a really talented bunch.
There's lots of change and lots of exciting things happening at Feefo at the moment in the next 12 to 18 months. So it's lucky they're a great bunch, cause I'm going to make them work really hard, but at the end of it, there's going to be some cool stuff.
Nice. I'm always interested in marketers backgrounds and how they've ended up where they are. Any particular bits along the way? It's always interesting people that have gone agency side to client sides. Obviously some good experienced. It tends to be the case that people go from agency to client rather than vice versa in most instances, but it does happen. How has that helped shape you now?
I've flip-flopped a little bit, actually I went client agency, client agency, back to client again. So I couldn't quite make my mind up what world suited me best. It's interesting that no matter which side of the fence you end up, the other side is always considered the dark side. Client side will say you've gone to the dark side. If you go to agency an agency will say you've gone to the dark side if you go to client side.
I think what it taught me is something that you probably don't always get. I started with IBM, you don't get to see the full flow of a creation of a campaign or the fruition of an idea. Very often in a large organisation like that, the brief will come from maybe the states or a particular product team, and a lot of it's fully formed. And then you get a version of that brief arrive at you in country. And 80% of it's set for you and 20% you can play with.
Whereas actually being an agency, both times the agencies weren't big at the time, although one grew up to be pretty enormous in the end, going from, okay this brief coming from a client and seeing the process of ideation and then fleshing that out and sounding it out and then building it conceptually, pitching it back, building the executions, tracking results, like the full end to end stuff, that's helped me now. Especially now I run teams that cover all of those different corners.
So I did some lecturing at University of Surrey for a couple of years, around digital marketing. One thing I told all the students is no matter what kind of corner of marketing that they thought they could see themselves in, that they should all do some sort of agency background.
Because I just don't think that speed of work most of the time, that work ethic, if we're really honest and that view of campaigns all the way from beginning to end happens anywhere else that naturally. So maybe they listened to me. I've seen some of them on LinkedIn have joined agencies, so maybe they were listening, I can never tell.
Cool. How did you find that? I did some lectures once and it was the toughest, one of the best learning curves, I think I've ever had personally in terms of talking and presenting and keeping people focused. I had groups of 30, 30 odd kids. But we were in an IT lab environment too.
So everybody had an iMac in front of them and it was just, everyone was in their first year of uni and it was like trying to control a crowd basically. Which was really rewarding in a weird way. Actually, I really enjoyed it in every respect, but it was definitely, definitely challenging. I don't know whether you found the same.
It was challenging. I had final year students and originally about the first time we did it was about 40 or 50, had a great professor that I did it with Dr. Christine Rivers. And the second year it was so popular that we went up to 75. So the room got bigger and exactly the same, they all had laptops in front of them. And you didn't know if they were making notes or doing someone else's homework or just not listening at all.
And even for me, I'm in my late thirties now, it's just totally different. It was the same uni I went to when I was a student. So I kind of went back, but they were great. They were such a smart bunch and it was hugely challenging, but I'd recommend to any professional now in the same way I did with the students that actually a bit of lecturing, I don't know if you found it, but really irons out what you actually know and what you think you know, and what you're confident in telling a student and what you know is just kind of your opinion. And it really made you focus on what you were saying to those people.
Yeah, definitely. And packaging it up in a way that was concise and clear and not too fluffy, but just finding that balance and communicating it with clarity, but keeping people engaged, all of those things. .
I'm not scaring them away from the profession either. Like I didn't want to be too real, because I wanted them to go into marketing.
Cool. Well, let's dive into the subject. We're talking all about CX customer experience. I feel like maybe we can start there with this customer experience as a term. We've talked about digital experiences, I don't know if the whole language of semantics around the marketing world has evolved with time and continues to do so. And there's a lot of buzz words. I'm not suggesting CX is a buzzword, but there's a lot of terminology in the marketing world. How do you see the customer experience landscape?
What does the current customer experience landscape look like in B2B marketing?
I don't think you're far off. I think it did start as a buzzword wordy phrase to begin with, but then quickly people understood as the way we engage with people proliferated from I'm talking from sort of 2006, 2008 onwards as digital really took hold. I am old enough to have been in that first agency when for one year there, it was predominantly a print agency and marginally a digital agency.
And within 12 months it was completely the other way around, that proliferation of touch points and that proliferation of then the ability to track, suddenly meant that the buzzword started to solidify I think. Now fast forward 12/13 years, it's a key strategic consideration for most major brands. And if it's not they're probably behind, to be controversial, it should be. And then what customer experience means has proliferated as well.
If you put CX or customer experience into Google, you might end up with a contact centre, you might end up with, how are you rooting your voice calls? Have you got virtual call routing and are you integrating live chat while people wait and things like this. All the way down to what Feefo does, which is we capture customer experiences effectively where you grew up 10 years ago as a ratings and reviews company. But it's fair to say now that's just a portion of what we do.
We work with tiny organisations that have just started and are paying us hundreds of pounds a month to work with enormous brands that pay us thousands of pounds a month. And the things that those different organisations are trying to get out of our platform hugely varies. But CX is at the heart of all of it, whether you're selling artisan cupcakes from your kitchen for the first time, and you want to capture how happy your customers are and put that on your website.
Or if you're selling thousands of cars a month and you're trying to understand what females aged 30 to 45, think about this certain colour red. There's hundreds and hundreds of applications of CX just in Feefo, let alone in the term itself. So it started as a buzzword, but I think now it should be core to a lot of what we all do.
What about in the B2B landscape? Cause I think naturally when I think of CX, I think of it more as in a consumer environment and maybe it's about that rooting calls, the customer experience of phoning your bank or some of the examples you touched on.
And maybe it feels like B2B is a little bit. I mean, it is in a lot of respects for maybe a little bit behind in terms of embracing that wider customer experience way of thinking. But I don't know what your thoughts are on that?
I think we've seen it before. Like the way we experienced B2C bleeds into the way we expect B2B to act. So dare I say it Amazon, and we fully expect Amazon to have understood what we've purchased before, to understand what we might then be interested in, books, aftershave, garden appliances, whatever it might be. It understands us. Now when we are trying to buy something in the B2B world, there's shadows of that expectation come with the experience we expect.
There is some sort of homogeneity between the two. The same now I think will come with customer experience. I think the stat is around 96% of all consumers use reviews in a purchase. So whether that's at the beginning, the middle or the end, a review is a part of a purchase now as a consumer.
It can't not bleed into our B2B expectations, it's just a natural instinct now to go and find out if there are testimonials, if there are reviews or they're being rated. Even if you are a B2B company at the most high level, are you running RFP document? In your RFP document, are you asking for NPS scores? Can you provide your internal NPS scores? There's portions of customer experience now that should be key to a B2B marketing experience.
I think the other thing is having worked at Feefo now for the last 10 months. I think the one really scary realisation is that in the last 20 years of my career, I haven't listened to customers enough. Whether I was saying software or infrastructure or cloud or cybersecurity, or as I say, a checkered past, I really never stood up and went, can someone now provide me all that we've got on what our customers think?
And all that we got and what our customers are telling us about how we complete projects, how we deliver the speed of it, et cetera. And I don't think I'll make that mistake again. Having worked in this industry, I really think it's madness when you think about it. I was making decisions around multimillion dollar campaigns to sell multimillion dollar solutions. And at no point in my process did I go, what do customers think? We guessed and we persona'd and we workshopped. And we did all these other things, but I never got quantitative data to use, and it probably does exist. And I probably should have done.
Which platforms are best for capturing CX data?
Very honest of you. It's turning into a confession episode. Just earlier I recorded an episode with a head of product marketing, talking about positioning and how that all begins with understanding customer's needs. And I guess a different point in the journey and life cycle of learning.
I think we're talking more about live ongoing feedback that you're getting from customers rather than trying to figure out how to take a product to market, but it all becomes kind of cyclical, I guess, at a certain point. It's an interesting landscape because I know that even running my own business on the agency side, we sometimes finish a project and we're looking for a customer review or testimonial and we're looking at Google reviews and there's all these agency specific platforms that we can steer people to.
And it feels like there's 10 different options that we could steer one of our clients to, to ask for a review. And if we've done a really good job, maybe we could ask them to complete one or two or even more, but we don't want to annoy people and keep asking them to fill out loads and loads of stuff.
So with such a wide landscape and particularly for listeners that are B2B tech and SaaS focused, where things like Capterra and G2 and all of these tech specific platforms also have reviews on them. Where do you start with trying to pick a platform and the one that you're gonna use to steer your customers towards?
I think there really are horses for courses. Like I think the Capterras and the G2s obviously specialise in tech and particularly platforms, SaaS in G2s instance. A good example is with Feefo and we work with businesses so we're kind of B2B to C in this instance, we worked with Kia is a good example. We just completed an awards submission with them, for the UK customer satisfaction awards. And they've been shortlisted as finalists for best use of customer insight.
But in the submission, it specifically says from Kia that we align with what they view to be verified and trusted reviews. So if you start talking about the competition, if you go with someone like Trustpilot, it would be very easy for me to point out negatives and stuff, but I actually don't think that's fair. I think Trustpilot's one side of the same coin.
Trustpilot gather reviews publicly. So what they do generally is create a page for a company and then begin to provide reviews on that company, whether the company controls it or not. So that means you get a completely far reaching set of views and that those reviews, it's not for us to say they're not valid as long as they're real. Those reviews can come from any given experience.
A good example is we've got reviews about Feefo on Trustpilot where it's about a pair of shoes that were delivered and the delivery was late and left on the doorstep and it got wet. And so Feefo got one star, but we didn't provide the shoes or the delivery or decide to leave it on the doorstep. But because Feefo was the review company behind the choice behind the shoes behind the delivery, we got one star. That is a valid opinion, right? But it's probably slightly misguided. What Trustpilot does is gather all of those things.
For us on the other side of the coin, Feefo only gather reviews from people have genuinely transacted. So it depends on what you need, is what I'm saying. So in your instance, if you actively ran a Google my business page, you can guide your customers to leave you reviews.
But at the same time, it's publicly available and anybody that wants to leave a review about you could have hired a photographer who did a terrible job. You only paid him half the invoice because you agreed with that, but in a fit of peak, he leaves a one star review about your agency, which is totally unfounded and unfair. It's his opinion, in our world he is entitled to shout about it. But that's the forum you've chosen to function in.
A good example for us is if we worked with a B2B from let's say around business finances or legal, so we work with some really big legal firms. They don't publish their reviews publicly because sometimes those reviews contain confidential information. However, as a large legal firm it's in their best interest to not just gather reviews, but gather reviews that have been completely verified and completely trusted. They don't publish them. They're not for everyone to read. Internally as a large kind of magical circle organisation they're using that information to help refine their processes, how they deal with them, how they bill, when their invoices are sent, et cetera.
So it is horses for courses. There isn't one real answer but what I would say is if you're making a choice about your customer platform, your reviews and ratings platform, purely based on price, you're probably making the wrong choice. It should be about what you need from that data.
How can marketers use CX data to inform their strategies?
And you alluded to it there with the magic circle law firms. But in terms of that piece about how marketers can take this data and think a bit more broadly and start to make decisions off the back of it. You just said that they're thinking about invoicing and client experience and all kinds of different things. I guess the use cases are widespread, once you've got that data, it's just endless what you can start to do with it.
Massively, massively. You can pick any industry, but let's say grocery shopping, online grocery shopping, the last 18 months, huge business. People were confined to their homes, they needed the shopping to come to them. They needed it efficiently. They're probably buying for two weeks at a time, especially initially there was panic and everything else.
You could be a supermarket that's delivering 200 pounds worth of shopping every week to this customer. And you're getting four and a half to five stars. Very happy with it. Really fantastic. The truth is around CX now it's not about the score it's about listening. And I don't mean to sound glib or slightly marketingy at the danger of that.
But you could be getting a 4.6 out of five star rating and that's fantastic. But if you aren't taking all of that data and putting it through something like, Feefo have a tool called performance profile, you put it through and it uses AI engine to analyse sentiment and emotion. You put that through delivering 200,000 pounds of shopping, everyone's between four and five stars, everyone's happy.
In that data, in the words that are used, what you've missed is that everyone was being really, you know, overall really great, great value for money. Really appreciate it. Delivery was fantastic. Delivery man was really great but the eggs were routinely cracked or the cartons for your eggs seem not to protect them very well. And you've delivered 10,000 deliveries in the month of June and so on and so forth.
You start putting that data through at scale and you start to realise you've got a problem with your egg cartons and that those egg cartons cost 1.20 out of a 200 pound basket. And that could be the thing that makes your customer change their mind and shop with someone else.
And then that, to your point, Alex, that's not a marketing issue. That's a supply chain, that's an operations, that's a distribution issue. Are we saying delivery was on time, but the delivery man wasn't very friendly.
And if you're putting that through a sentiment analysis engineer for the last six months, negative connotations around delivery people has been growing. You probably need to look at your delivery supplier. Do you need to talk to them? Do you need to retrain them? Do you need to change your delivery supply?
We do historically talk to marketing and e-commerce people the most, the impact and the value of truly listening to your customer experience. Data could be as simple as finding that you need to change your egg cartons, but that could have a huge effect if you extrapolate that over six to 12 months. It could have a huge impact on return customers, for instance.
That's a good example because I think I've always thought of reviews based as being more of a social proof to help grow and win more new business rather than learning that then kind of goes throughout the whole organisation.
And I guess in the B2B tech and SaaS world, we often have customer success teams and account managers, people that are staying close to customers, at least in the enterprise environments. But I guess in that lower cost end of the market where it's more about scale and it's kind of the insights that you can gather from processing this kind of data is pretty huge.
How CX data goes beyond marketing for wider business growth
Yeah. So lower end the way you use this data varies as well. You're asking for a level of sophistication, small scale B2B customers of ours are very keen to very quickly capture positive experiences. You're on a scale up route, so you are giving lots more people white glove attention.
There's an extra level of care that goes on when you're not functioning across a hundred countries and multi-billion dollars. There's the ability to foster that brand culture with every customer. You want to capture that and you want to play that back to them really quickly. You want that embedded in your website. You want that embedded in your search engine result pages.
It's a spectrum of leverage for this data. But I think the point is, the days that maybe 10 years ago where you were gathering a really high score and you popped it on the livery of your vans, or you popped it on the footer of your website and congratulated yourself.
Particularly in the last 12 to 18 months where digital engagement has gone through the roof, you've now got a critical mass of data that can literally shape what you probably do for the next 12 to 24 months. If you do it properly, whether you're B2C or B2B, there's indicators in there on what your customers want, don't want, like and don't like.
How much is this customer's experience data not just a marketing thing? But I guess we shouldn't avoid the fact that there's a huge amount of insight to feed back into marketing right and to continue to kind of drive growth.
Yeah. And that's definitely where Feefo has matured because that's how we started. We just gathered it and created scores and played that data back to you. And now it's more about how we play that data back to you, how we give you tools to analyse it.
So it's not just about putting your arms around a massive pile of data. How do you get it out? You know, API into Salesforce, API into this, that, and the other. How are you feeding it into your CRM systems?
The importance and how central the customer should be now is probably more prevalent than it's ever been. You run an agency and I've been in agency and in revenue generating marketing teams and demand generating marketing teams. The challenge has always been for the last 10 years is to generate traffic, traffic, traffic, foot fall, foot fall, foot fall.
How do we get people to the place where we want them to get in a digital sense? Now it's about retention, volume of people in the last 12 to eight months has not been the challenge. How do you make your websites sticky? How do you make your service sticky?
How in a subscription model, do you keep people coming back? You do that by listening to customers and refining what you offer to meet their needs. So the challenge for marketers and digital marketers, B2B or B2C has definitely changed, now that there's so much proliferation of digital engagement.
I'm checking your website to see if you use Feefo for Feefo. Feefo Inception, but you do have Feefo for you for yourselves?
That's always interesting. Like I'm on the board at Feefo, but negative reviews and pointed comments that come back to us about certain things that we do, reaches board level.
We discuss it at board level and we discuss how we tackle issues that might be raised because we would be enormous hypocrites. If people gave us feedback about something that we do or they perceive us to do and we didn't at the very least try to either address it or discuss it, it's usually important.
That said we do also get late delivery of a pair of shoes left on the doorstep in the soaking rain and there's not a lot we can do about it. But yeah, we're hugely geared up to listen to the same data.
And the other thing that's really exciting and I think probably you'd love this. I feel like a kid in the sweet shop is, we've got 4,000 clients across multiple different industries or collecting review data on a daily basis. I think we probably weren't quite the exact number, but hundreds of millions of review requests every year.
So that pile of gold dust data for me to create commentary on industries or on state and nation is something I cannot wait to get my teeth stuck into and we're working on some stuff now, which is really exciting because I can see in an aggregated anonymised sense, we won't be quoting any brands out of it, but I can see how people feel.
I can see what they're saying. I can see the words that they're using regularly and what emotions are attached to those words. So yeah, we use Feefo for Feefo. I'd be crazy not to.
How to communicate CX data to an executive level
Of course. And what about taking that customer experience kind of data? You've just talked about how at Feefo it reaches board level, but we're going to ask you about taking that into the C suite environment and communicating that kind of information.
Because I think as with anything to do with data collection, whether you're a marketer reporting on PPC campaigns and lead gen or anything else, data can be a challenge to get into a board C-suite environment in the right way, in a way that is distilled down and make sense and everybody understands. So any thoughts or tips on that side of things?
Some of the spreadsheets and some of the dashboards that I see would not go down well at C-suite level at all. It's all about use cases like the egg carton use case is based on a true story, but not quite. Those egg cartons could be steering wheels. It could be a COVID refund policy for travel company.
I think the thing is if you boil it down into statistics and into use cases, something that, back to the egg cartons or for the magic circle legal firm, the period of time that people perceive that they were made to wait before a meeting or how quickly billing started when they joined a Zoom call, even if there were technical issues.
Any of these things that have been really prevalent in the last 12 to 18 months. If you can reduce your ongoing churn rate by 3% year on year, what's that worth to you? Millions, hundreds of thousands of pounds, depending on who you are as an organisation?
If you can point out to a CEO or a CTO or a CIO that aligning your supply chain to better egg cartons, you perceive that 20 to 30 more customers per week will return to your business. That's a reduction of churn by 5% year on year, which should equate to X million, they'll sign there and then.
And you can do that for cost savings, but you can also do that to your point about equating reviews, to return businesses and more business. We've got some great stats. I won't do my content team the disservice of trying to quote them completely verbatim, but I think it's over 20% more engagement on search engine results that include a four to five star rating.
So if you're including the fact that you've got snippets from your reviews and your 4.8 out of 5 in your serp, you've got a one in five chance of getting more engagement than you had if you didn't have it.
Then if you extrapolate that to a demand gen manager, they can very quickly in their waterfall work out what that equates to in terms of MQL. And then in terms of revenue generated. So customer experience started as that buzzword, but now it's a very, very, very quantitative term.
How CX data an align cross functional teams
Absolutely. And what about the marketing and product side of things? I think we talked so much about marketing and sales alignment. We talked about marketing and product alignment, so many different aspects of marketing are just having to interface with other parts of the business.
I guess product teams are always thinking about what jobs customers need to do and how they can help solve them. As are marketers in some respects, but I guess any data like this just helps to further cement that connection.
Yeah. And I think what customer experience data provides a shared source of intelligence. So Feefo don't provide reviews to the larger organisations that I've mentioned. Reviews and surveys that we provide are a means to collect and aggregate that data. That's the doorway if you like.
What we then provide is effectively customer based BI. Because we're a verified platform is a genuinely true source of data from which you can use as an anchor point. So where product and marketing and Feefo have just hired a brand new CPO and she's fantastic.
We have lots of plans to work with each other and already in lots of conversations together. Because we should be joined at the hip. That data in the middle is a fantastic anchor point from which to work with.
And whether that customer base by a BI could inform anything from sales and marketing direction and a message, the organisation's five-year product roadmap, which might involve a new steering wheel or different egg cartons, or a different way of billing for the magic circle or legal firm. That's how it bleeds on product side. How do we set up variable billing? Versus me, how am I taking that message and converting it into marketing? All of that is built upon customer based business intelligence right in the middle.
At what stage should an organisation gather CX data?
It's really made me think about how different businesses generate different amounts of data, right? I think you have to be at a certain scale for a lot of the insights gathering stuff to be really useful. Is that a fair kind of perspective? Like there's this certain volume where this becomes more powerful, at least the AI and the clever part.
It is because you need a certain volume in order for the AI to work. But then that's why someone like Kia or Toyota use us because you can look at the scale of 10,000 transactions in the year of 2020, and then I can zoom in and on a one-to-one basis.
Talk to Alex about why he left a two star review about his experience in the showroom in Yoville, just for the sake of it. I'm making that up obviously, but why did you? Alex, I can see from your history, you've left two, five star reviews and now it's two star, really sorry to hear that.
So the platform gives you the ability to go in on a one-to-one basis. And if you're a smaller organisation, B2B or B2C, you've worked blood, sweat, and tears to generate this brand value that you're trying to generate revenue, but you're trying to generate an entire organisation from scratch.
When you're delivering those artisan cupcakes or whether you're a kind of brand new SaaS platform that's pre-funding, when someone leaves you a poor review, you've got the ability to go in and engage with that person a one-to-one basis, roll out those white gloves, really find out what the problem is.
You might not be able to fix it, but you can learn from it or you can fix it but fixing a problem is sometimes even better than never having a problem at all. Because that sense of emotional currency and rapport is even stronger. So again, I'm going to get tired of saying this.
You might need to edit me out, but as long as you've got a platform like Feefo, which is flexible to be able to do one or the other and never the two shall meet. Toyota or Kia is a great example. They get as much value from the at-scale views of the analysis that we can provide as much as they do about going in and talking to Alex about his journey into the oval showroom and what went wrong.
And if you're set up as an organisation to have set CX central to what you do in that fashion, I genuinely think you're going to do better than the organisations that aren't.
Makes sense. And a good point almost to wrap up on I think a positive note. That half hour has flown by, but thank you. I think there's a lots of people listening, thinking hard about how they dive a bit deeper into the customer experience as well and think about that level of data and what they do with it.
More importantly, not just capturing it and having it sat there, which I think most businesses probably at this stage in life do, but I think less so actually growing actionable insights and putting it to good use. So thank you for sharing your thoughts.
My pleasure, really great to chat.
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