Revenue marketing in B2B tech with Aristomenis Capogeannis, Revenue Marketing Director at NVIDIA
In many B2B tech companies, sales and marketing work hand in hand as one department. This new equation can sometimes equal revenue marketing. But how does it work?
On this episode of the FINITE podcast, Aristomenis Capogeannis, Revenue Marketing Director at NVIDIA, will walk us through his journey from working in a startup to a company with over 18,000 employees and how he ties sales and marketing together.
This episode covers:
- About Aristomenis and his path to marketing
- The journey of joining NVIDIA
- How has NVIDIA changed your perspective?
- What is the definition of revenue marketing?
- What are the toolkits to success in generating leads?
- How does sales and marketing work in a big organisation?
- Does sales and marketing report to the same leader?
- What are the tools that help you scale revenue marketing
Listen to the full episode here:
And check out more of the FINITE B2B marketing podcast here!
Hello, and welcome back to another FINITE podcast episode, where today I am joined by Aristomenis Capogeannis, who is director of revenue marketing at NVIDIA. You'll probably know, NVIDIA as the computer and gaming graphics giants. And today we'll get an inside scoop into how they're shifting that traditional B2B marketing function towards revenue marketing, a shift to areas obviously heavily involved with. He'll share lots of insights into revenue marketing, generally how to embrace it, the importance of data aligning with sales technology he uses and loves, and much more. I hope you enjoy!
The FINITE community is kindly supported by the Marketing Practice, a global integrated B2B marketing agency that brings together all the skills you need to design and run account-based marketing, demand generation, channel and customer marketing programs. Head to themarketingpractice.com to learn more.
Hello, Ari and welcome to the FINITE podcast. Thank you for joining.
Thank you, Alex. Glad to be here.
About Aristomenis and his path to marketing
Looking forward to talking. I know from our previous conversation, sounds like you've been very busy at NVIDIA and I'm looking forward to hearing about that and everything you've been working on sounds like quite the journey.
But let's start with a bit more about you. Tell us a little bit about your background, maybe how you got into marketing, how you've ended up at NVIDIA, and a bit about your current role, if that's okay with you.
Absolutely! I'm Ari Capogeannis. I'm director of revenue, marketing and analytics at NVIDIA. How I got into marketing? Well, I had to make ends meet. So I was in a small startup manufacturing, microwave, radio frequency controller business. And in that sort of small environment, you've got your hands on everything.
We don't outsource anything at that point in time there's moments, where you're in a suit and tie trying to unclog the drains on the roof, because you don't outsource anything and have to do a straight from that to meeting with our customers visiting from Japan.
Having my hands in everything I've started again in the affinity to marketing, but this is old school one-to-one enterprise marketing, kind of lead gen 1.0. And started to glom onto marketing. And the more we progressed in marketing, the more data became more and more a foundation for how the decisions in marketing were being made.
At one point in time, people started calling them marketing technologists because they were unique individuals in marketing that got data. And then slowly organisations started hiring a demand gen person. We got to have a demand gen person on our marketing team. So you have the corporate marketing, head corporate marketing, and they had a demand gen person that demand gen started to grow more and more and more with more embracing of data.
And there, in that point in time, I really gained an affinity for marketing because my whole background is split right down the middle between data. I started out as a programmer analyst and the touchy feely side. I used to paint designs for skateboard decks for friends. So being able to marry the two really had a solid fit within marketing as we've been moving forward.
Demand generation itself as we progressed, you know, I talk about people-based marketing and the progression of demand gen from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3, from a focus on leads to MQL, to ops and pipeline. It's just been a fantastic journey to be on with marketing as a concept. And it's just stuck.
So for me personally, I'm at the point now where is diving too far ahead, but I firmly believe we're almost at the point where there's a huge blurred line between sales, marketing and B2B. And I just keep waiting to see what happens next. And I find it very fascinating to be in.
The journey of joining NVIDIA
Cool. Well, we'll get there. And I think let's dive into that revenue marketing topic. Maybe just briefly, you can tell us a bit about the current role and video kind of team structure, how your role fits into the kind of wider and video family.
Absolutely. I came into NVIDIA through their acquisition of Cumulus Networks. So NVIDIA acquired Cumulus Networks and Mellanox to spearhead the networking business unit. Huge bolster, the push into the data center space they're in, which is a huge focus for us now on B2B.
If you take demand generation coming from Cumulus, I was managing demand generation on our inside sales program. The two really in a true aligned sales marketing lockstep belong together because they absolutely rely on each other. And I've always had the viewpoint that demand generation should be just a service to sales, as much as we like to chest thump as marketers and worry about attribution.
The point is if your sales individual is successful, you are successful as a demand gen individual. If you take demand generation and you take all the execution pieces out of the mix, you know, NVIDIA has a whole campaigns team.
They have great digital marketers in the mix. If you take that all away, what you're left with is the top is the function that most dimension teams don't actually have enough time to devote to that they should strategy, data embracing, and thought leadership from that perspective. So the revenue marketing organisation was built from the ground up in enterprise marketing and NVIDIA to actually do that.
Embrace the data, find out where the gaps are, keep pushing on it to figure out how everybody internally can be executing better with more ROI at the speed of light that we like to say that we're operating at within NVIDIA. So the revenue marketing function really is strategy and thought leadership from a data embracement from past demand gen leaders, coupled with the global analytics team that I think a lot of analytics teams, a lot of organisations like this, do great work for producing data that people are just requesting to put into emails that get sent out that you or I might be folding.
But it's showing people that the duck feed in the pond are moving and that's all people really care about. At that point. What we're trying to do is provide snackable consumable information to actually get somebody to put a right foot forward instead of a left foot in this massive organisation.
How has NVIDIA changed your perspective?
And tell us a bit about, I guess when you came into NVIDIA through the acquisition, maybe things were in a slightly different place. You kind of alluded to maybe things being done in a more traditional kind of B2B marketing sense.
I think like organisational change is a challenge for most businesses' marketing departments, how marketing fits into the bigger picture is something that a lot of markets are thinking about. Maybe you can touch on a little bit about the journey or kind of how you've seen things change since you joined NVIDIA.
Yeah. I was just having a conversation with somebody about 30 minutes prior to this on how I feel like life in marketing right now for anybody that's been on this journey is like a video game. I spent six months trying to convince the organisation from building up a data foundation, why we had to move past a focus on list purchases, volume of net, new names, and really embrace predictive analytics.
Get beyond the MQL, start looking at in-market accounts, and high intent leads make it to the sales kickoff, prove sales, marketing alignment, pushing on what I'm viewing as sales driven, digital marketing, where the budget lines are now blurred. And now you get acquired. It took six months in a hundred plus organisation, a hundred plus employee organization to enact that change.
Now you're in 18,000 plus employee organisation, huge machine. Every time there's been an acquisition, it's kind of like, you got to here and now you're going to start all over and you need to regarner your advocates, plant seeds, again, start building up and as well, just like I say, beware the marketer that comes in with a playbook and just says, this is the playbook we're going to execute.
You're looking at another six months minimum of what I call data dumpster diving. Figure out what is broken, what is working, what the new ecosystem looks like, and then start building again. I knew the enticing aspect to that is building is fun. Building is great. The painful part to that is I think for a lot of people having to have the same conversations again and in a large-scale organisation, not just one time, but countless times.
What is the definition of revenue marketing?
Yeah. I can imagine just lots of repetition, lots of meetings, lots of listeners, spectators. These things take some time, I guess you've alluded to how you view digital marketing now and your definition of revenue marketing is that basically sales focused marketing.
Because I think the time is interesting and lots of marketing orgs maybe think they're moving towards revenue marketing, which for them is just being able to tie marketing back to revenue from a connecting the dots from a numbers perspective, which is a big part of things. I wonder what your kind of almost definition of revenue marketing really is.
The foundation of revenue marketing really is being able to produce a predictable, scalable, repeatable model. So I think a lot of us, and again, marketing's very good at buzzwords revenue marketing is here today. Tomorrow there'll be a cooler name. I'll call myself that, but we're very good.
The people have gotten very good embracing data people they've gotten very good at showing where we're at. And you know, I think a lot of marketers out there are really good now in realising demand gen lead gen 1.0 is focusing on leads and that new names. 2.0 was actually produce quality leads for sales. That would get the kind of gamified metric of the MQL. 3.0 really is aligning around ops and pipeline that thing that traditionally marketers in the past would say I have nothing to do with that.
I send the lead over. I make sure it's quality. And in some regard, and then it's on sales behaviors to determine whether or not a meeting comes about from that or pipelines generated. It's not true with the tech we have in play now, we're actually able to create cohesive omni-channel experiences that are relevant to whatever stage of awareness or conversation that customer has in their lead life cycle with us.
So the revenue marketing perspective is more than just tying the data to pipeline. It's being able to say, okay, not only are we here right now, but this is why we're here. You know, we're not just pointing at the torpedo in the water that an individual here at NVIDIA good analogy around that. I get it. I see the dashboard we're pointing at the torpedo. What do we do? So that predictable, scalable, repeatable model is being able to know that if I affect something or put particular ingredients in these channels over here versus these channels over here, I know an X amount of time.
I'm going to see this result over my pipeline over here. The magic behind all that really is beyond marketing technology, beyond the data I'm telling my team nowadays, you're a politician at that point because the sales marketing alignment, cliche that we all say we need requires biting your tongue, sucking it up and constantly knocking on doors in a sales organisation that typically because of past experiences, because of quotas and personal focuses, doesn't want to meet with a marketer.
So revenue marketing function really is true. Sucking it up and trying to figure out where those advocates are in the sales organisation to figure out how I can be the best service to those individuals. That's a hard thing to sell to a marketing organisation, a group of campaign managers. For instance, focused on brand. Let's say Brand and awareness launches.
I mean, even the term revenue marketing, at least it's got the word revenue in there, right? So for sales colleagues, they know revenue is, revenues sounds real wild and it makes it less fluffy and appetising.
It does, and at the same time, I think it shoots ourselves in the foot to a degree. I think a lot of the salespeople will look at the cutesy marketer : " Oh, how cute!" He's referring to himself as generating revenue. And I'm going to keep the expletives out of this conversation.
But the typical thought process in that sales individual's mind at that point is I generate revenue. This market is the guy that sends me the garbage can full of names into the system that aren't attributed to anything that I'm actually doing. We have the same thing in the massive organisation in NVIDIA.
My group as swim lanes tied to B2C in addition to B2B, as well as developer. Developer, a group of people we don't market or sales to and sell to, but are definitely a few tie. The dots tied into the sales life cycle.
If you get that whole customer journey analysis in place and see how it affects that net result at the end. So as much as people even internally get a front to like we know your team has revenue in the name, but this current initiative we're looking at is something other than revenue. Yes it is, but in the end we're operating a business, generating revenue and everything in the mix in some way, has a net result in the end, tied to revenue being generated now.
It goes beyond simply looking at net new names that came in particular channels. It has to do with journey analysis and what a billboard on the freeway did two years ago for an account it's actually closing today. Now, I'm not going to argue with the sales organisation that I or somebody else in marketing had some X percentage attribution to them closing that account. Forget it. I don't care. I think marketing itself attribution is good for knowing where to plant those seeds, but we need to stop chest thumping and actually have that service view to the sales organisation from a revenue perspective.
What are the toolkits to succeed in generating leads?
Interesting. So all of the data that you're working with and by the sounds of it, there's a certain scale to this and you're obviously a big organisation. I imagine using some pretty advanced, clever technology to kind of pull everything together. So there's a lot of data, but you've also referenced the politics that persistence knocking on doors and kind of just basically sticking out stuff.
How much would you kind of weight each of the various kind of things you've got in your toolkit to success? Like obviously data is a massive part of demonstrating and building the case, but also the more human side of things that we've talked about in terms of just building relationships and finding the right people in the sales org to build those relationships with.
And is it a bit of everything, would you say that taking that data-driven approach has really helped kind of unlock things and make things real and kind of force the argument for you? Or is there as much to be said for the other stuff too. In terms of the good old fashioned, find the right person, find an advocate for you on the sales org? Is it a bit of everything?
I've always had the focus on the advocate side? I think the shift from an SMB into a massive enterprise organisation is truly changed how I view my answer to that question.
Up until NVIDIA, I was always centered around what's my foundational tech stack. And I can talk to you about that in another time, I have a pure view of no matter if I have a small wallet or deep pockets, what tech do I need in place from an analysis perspective, from a modern demand generation lead qualification system perspective, and from an omni-channel experience perspective. When you get in the massive enterprise organisation, and you're not able to quickly implement what you view as foundational tech because there's a massive group already here. You revisit what you view as important. It turns out my foundational tech stack is no longer there. It's slowly trickling in, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's completely gone.
And you finally get to the point where you explained to the team, why canned reports, aren't going to cut it. You don't know what you're looking for until you slice and dice ad nauseum. You realise that the root of everything, the foundation for success, there is alignment with that sales organisation.
Now, again, NVIDIA massive sales organisation. I still have so many people to meet, but especially right now in this COVID era with everybody quarantine and we're not in office, it takes so much work for so many meetings to actually get to the point where you're learning. What's driving those individuals, how each individual's looking at the data or their ecosystem differently. What's important to one person totally different than the other. And how that meshes with how the marketing organisation is in their mind, supporting air quotes, sales.
Sales is comprised of all these different groups of people, all these different personalities, all these different ways of looking at things. And if you're not having those conversations, there's no way you can successfully support that organisation across the board. And as far as the fancy tech for data and we've got an amazing tech stack, but the last night, like always I'm sitting there slicing and dicing an Excel. My go to.
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How does sales and marketing work in a big organisation?
Yeah, we can come and maybe talk a bit about the tech side of things. But I mean, so it sounds like you've been kind of battling to get some of your favorite go-to tech stack implements that NVIDIA, but as you've alluded to those things can take some time.
Yeah, it'll happen. I think the hard part is going from if you're in a small startup. Anybody in a very small startup has had those days where you run over to your VP of marketing because there's no CMO yet at that scale of organisation and ask for his personal credit card so that you can go sign on for this new, cool technology you came across in the expo floor and have it implemented the next day.
That doesn't work in a massive enterprise organisation. For good reason. There are checks and balances on security and everything that really should be there. But with that in place, you move slower and it moving slower to hit all those checks and balances. It does afford you more time to focus on the politics that need to be in place and revisiting the data. I think there's too often a rush to build canned reports that look like they work.
We've built a marketing source dashboards from before you knew you wanted this all the way to pipeline generated. Those dashboards are sitting there, but if you don't keep revisiting it and every flavor of it for every aspect of the complex product portfolio and organization like NVIDIA, it just becomes this stale thing that nobody quite understands. And nobody can actually tell a story around.
Do you think being forced to kind of move forward without your go-to tech stackers has given you kind of a back to basics almost like clarity and it almost made you a better marketer as a result of not having you've had to think more holistically and neutrally about that landscape.
I think I would say that for the first time when you ended up in a massive organisation. Some things that you take for granted become conversations that you usually haven't had in the past. You're used to working with a small team. There's nobody else outside that team to educate around why you're doing what you're doing. You're just assuming people are going to listen.
And really people should question what you're doing. You could be negatively affecting the business. So within this organisation, that conversation, you know, typically in the past, I've run an integrated pipeline analysis meeting. It's get ahead of marketing, get ahead of sales, get ahead of the inside sales all around a table and on a weekly basis. And see what's working, what's not working. I'm really big on throwing the bad out there in front of people from reporting, not just focusing on good to figure out what needs to be fixed and what we can be doing to achieve greater success.
When you end up in the enterprise level organisation with a massive enterprise marketing group and campaign managers focused on everything from a slew of different avenues in B2B, B2C and dev.
One IPA meeting is an impossible task to have. So we started digital integrated programs, analysis meetings simply to have that pure marketing campaign round table around the data and actually get an understanding of what's happening in that ecosystem before it even makes it over to a marketer. Being able to say, I sent leads to sales. So lots and lots of meetings, which when we're quarantined sitting in front of video screen all day long is a tough ask for a lot of people.
Does sales and marketing report to the same leader?
Yeah. Makes sense. I'm interested in your perspective on within the B2B tech world, there's maybe been a bit of a rise of the kind of chief revenue officer type role, and I think a healthy amount of debate around, you know, really which functions should report into that role. And it does that role oversee marketing fully. And do you still need a CMO or a VP of marketing, whatever, or should a VP of team report into a CRO and all of these kinds of similar discussions.
And obviously when the word revenues, I guess the definition of a chief revenue officer is someone that oversees everything that's revenue generating, right? And you're obviously big on sales and marketing alignment. I'm just interested in your perspective on where you see that role setting, what it should overarch, if you even think it should exist, or whether you think a sales and marketing should have their own separate kind of leaders.
Yeah, it's interesting. I've seen it enacted in a variety of ways in different organisations. I've seen CRO being a pure sales focused role, and then I've seen CRO and owning demand gen and marketing hires. I really think it came us when we put that demand gen inside sales program together, it made the most sense.
But again, the politicking involved is deep. You're taking on SDRs who typically are a greener role. We had very seasoned individuals at Cumulus, but if you go into a lot of startup roles, the SDRs will be especially inbound, very green. The goal is to shift to outbound. If you're very good at inbound, we're going to move you to outbound. And the enticing aspect for these individuals is to get out in the field and become an account manager. As soon as you put a sales individual in this aligned structure where the alignment is great, but it's owned by marketing.
You shot that person's psyche. They're thinking: "Oh my God, I'm in marketing. How the hell can I be in the field rep over in the sales organisation at this point?" So that's how we did it at Cumulus. It took a lot of understanding and thought. And I think with my having one and a half feet over in the sales side mindset wise, it helped a lot with that.
But in any traditional org, if you just take your SDR program or some contingent of it and you see the CRO roles on marketing, it's not going to work. At the same time, I firmly believe demand gen can be owned by the CRO. I think it makes sense. It should be in lock step with inside sales, all the way to your account reps and to deal close with the tech and things we can do now.
But from the perspective of brand beginning demand, I don't think the CRM role could own the whole brand aspect, the awareness aspect and everything else that marketing does. I think most people don't have solid metrics around how that attribution works in defeating in leads, engaging with us at some point in time. So I see the CRO role being more sales ownership than anything, but owning that demand gen aspect and things related to that.
Demand is going to rely on everything from corporate to product marketing. And product marketing can't be owned by the CRO. But demand gen, absolutely. I could totally see that. And I think it absolutely makes sense, which is why I started pushing towards the concept of sales driven, digital marketing. We're getting closer and closer to the point where arguments about budget are hindering, how that execution on things that benefit everything from demand gen to deal close happen. To get beyond that, you're looking at a pyramid structure under one individual, which would be that CRO.
What are the tools that help you scale revenue marketing?
Yeah. Interesting. What about the tech side? I mean, we've talked a lot about the technology side of things and you'll kind of go to tech stack. I don't know whether you're happy share. I don't want you to necessarily name tech stacking tools if you're not happy doing so. But I guess, I'm interest in how certain technologies are there specific tools or just in broad terms of helping to kind of scale revenue marketing through technology, but also automation.
You talked a bit about identifying high intent accounts. Obviously intent data is a big thing for a lot of businesses doing account-based marketing. And there's a lot of tools out there that are absolutely flying at the moment in terms of products developing at pace. So yeah, any kind of key categories or specific tools that kind of on your radar.
Absolutely. A focus in mind has been consolidation. When we had on-prem conferences, you go across an expo floor around a rough tech and I call it revenue technology. I get back to in a sec, but you'll see 50 vendors selling the same seven services. Some doing certain aspects of them better than others and any organisation that's taken on funding or has deep pockets.
The first thing they go is we've got to build our tech stack and they go and find you'll have 10 individuals in the organisation looking after two different solutions each and next thing you know, you've got this bloated tech stack. More often than not 75% of that technology isn't championed by anybody. So what these individuals are hoping is that I'm going to pay money for this solution, flip the switch and money, ROI, whatever their focus is, it's just going to happen.
It just doesn't work that way. I would just from the standpoint of the fact that every one of these organizations is completely different. There's no way you could have one tool that you just flip the switch and everything just works great. In the end, if you look across those tools, the ones that actually scale with you, the ones that are receptive to your specific organizational needs and adapt and change your product to help you are the ones I typically stick with.
There are little known tools that I started with when they were unknown to most that have just scaled rapidly with the various organisations I've been in. And consolidating the tech stack means I can centralise data management, centralised vendor management, and work with an agile group of people that are excited to be pushing the envelope, just like my team is. A few different providers they're in, I mean, Hushly would be a great example.
And there were years ago at Intact, we started using them for abandonment capture. It was a no brainer. I'm spending a bunch of paid media advertising dollars to get people to go to this landing page. And you have an 80, 90% let's bounce rate on average B2B forbade in that avenue.
If I have the means to give somebody the asset and they experience and have a very lightweight touch, asking them to give me your business email, to convert. I have an easy way to quantify what I'm doing and what I'm capturing and prove to the CMO at that time where the ROI is there. That product has shifted all the way from abandonment capture to full-blown dynamic ABM resource experiences now that we use today and have rode the wave with us to try and push the envelope here, that is the best example of a product that has shifted and grown.
And it is the point where typically in the past I would have had four or five other products in the mix to do what I can do with that one product. So there are a few people that I have stuck with for that very reason. On the predictive analytics side and sales enablement, 6sense. On the omni-channel experience side, as far as you know, how this tech all integrates together, it integrates with 6sense correlates with Hushly correlates, with CTS that are relevant to conversations. My sales org is having right now would be reactful. So anything that I can actually put in the mix for dynamic experiences that are relevant to that DMU member decision-making unit member, you know, by role by function, by stage of awareness where they are in a conversation or not yet with sales is my focus.
The data aspect data is cool. There's a lot of slice and dice. It's a huge realm right now. CDP, you name it a lot of buzzwords there, but like I said earlier, I'm still on an Excel file late at night.
So my focus really is how do I accelerate that individual's journey with cohesive experiences, whatever channel they're in that are relevant and resonate for them. You know, we've done analysis in the past. You get it right. You're looking at a 50% reduction in time to close easy 25 to 30% increase in time on site it's near and dear to my heart. I mean this massive org, if I was somewhere else tomorrow, I'd be knocking on the same doors of these providers that have grown with me through this period of time. And tech, you can talk about it forever, but back to the one point, I think we shoot ourselves in the foot when we call marketing technology.
When we're in this realm where we're so heavily focused people. Like ABM, another buzzword, everybody says you need sales and marketing alignment. Okay. What's that mean? We've been talking about it here. You know, a lot of politics. If I go to sales and tell them I've got a new piece of marketing technology, I want them to dive into, they don't want to hear it.
The focus is to frame it correctly as revenue technology and realise that if you're doing it right, the tech really is relevant to deal close. And this has gone a little far, but I saw somebody the other day refer to marketing technology is marketing. And at that point you've shot yourself in the foot, on the alignment aspect.
Yeah, it makes sense. There's some good tool references. I haven't come across Hushly in a while. 6sense and some of the others are coming up pretty regularly, as you can imagine on some of these discussions, so definitely wants to look into, but it sounds like your general consensus or preferences to be using fewer tools, but kind of stick with them and not be relying on plugging 50 different things together through APIs and APO and all these different things, but actually to consolidate usage.
Yeah. I think the selling point for a product is their own personal dashboard of metrics, it's not a selling point for me. Because as that tech stack grows, I can't be monitoring an individual dashboard, every single tool in the mix, candid integrate cohesively with my data repository. Can it integrate with my personalisation engines? Like the 6sense web API for example. The more that can happen and the more I can centrally manage the data from a central location, the better.
Awesome, I think we're pretty much out of time. You've shared some awesome insights. I think anyone that's on the kind of thinking about the revenue marketing journey will have learned a lot.
I know it's certainly given me lots to think about. And I think it's a fascinating journey you've been on from being absorbed in NVIDIA and some of the challenges that come with that and the enterprise space. So thank you for sharing everything. So candidly with our audience.
Well I got to say this is just not enough time. We could take this slice and dice it into five long days worth of deep dives around discussion points and hit on in here. But, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I could talk about this forever.
Yeah. We have our FINITE fest conference coming up in May. So I think we may have to try and wrap you back in and maybe talk a bit more about some of this stuff. But thank you again in the meantime.
Awesome. Thank you, Alex.
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